Dédé Tetsubayashi
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Brave Spaces Roundtable brought to you by incluu. I’m your host, Dr. Dédé Tetsubayashi, ethical technologist, social scientist, and founder of incluu, where I utilize my lived experiences as a Black, queer, invisibly disabled woman to support organizations’ development and investment in equitable, transformative change in their practices, and their people, and their products. Thank you so much for joining us today, Charlecia. Yes, please, will you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?
Charlecia Joy
Hi, everyone. My name is Charlecia Joy, and I am the founder of Stapledon Arts. I am an artist and an art educator and entrepreneur. Our mission at Stapledon Arts is to inspire Black and Brown emerging artists and art professionals through art education. And so I’ve spent about a decade in the art education space and have been a practicing artist for over 20 years in my childhood and adulthood. I’ve worked in many different spaces, such as in the community rec[reation] centers, after-school programs, push into school programs, and as a public high school art teacher in the South Bronx. And so that’s just a little bit about who I am, what I’ve done, and my business Stapledon Arts.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Would you please tell us a little bit more about your work at Stapledon Arts; specifically what brought you to this work and the creation of your line of inclusive art materials?
Charlecia Joy
Like I shared earlier, I have been a practicing artist for over 20 years, and so I started creating at the age of four. My mom was really big about me and my brother having activities that we could do individually. And that we could just really be inspired and enjoy our own company. And so I always gravitated toward creating art, and he was more into comics. And so she saw this affinity I have for art, and she nurtured that by putting me into different art programs. I was very privileged to have art at my elementary school. There was an art room at my local Boys & Girls Club that I basically lived in. And then she encouraged me to apply to a performing and visual arts middle school, which led me to apply and attend a performing and visual arts high school. And so my formative years [were] really immersed in creating art, and that was what I always wanted to do.
When I look back at my journals. When I look back at my high school yearbook, I always said that I wanted to be an artist. And so from that point, art always informed every decision, and every step I made throughout my career. So I got a Bachelor of Fine Arts and designing sets for theater. So theater production with a focus on Scenic Design. Then later got my Master’s in Art Education. And so not just the visual arts, but the performing arts have always been an inspiration. And throughout that journey, my formative years, like I said, I was privileged to have access to the arts, but also access to representation. So I had many Black women art teachers, I’ve had Black men, art teachers. I’ve had a lot of peers who were Black and Latinx in my community. I’m from South Florida, my mom is from the Bahamas, and my father is from Haiti, so I’m first generation. A lot of my peers were also Caribbean immigrants: Latinx, Central America and North America and South America. And so I really was immersed in just different cultures in South Florida, and as I continued on my journey in undergrad and higher education, I saw that less and less, particularly in the art teachers around me, and in the artworks that [were] being displayed and discussed and presented in my studies. And so basically coming from such a rich background in art surrounded by people who look like me from different cultures, and then as I moved up in my career, seeing that disproportion… it inspired me to create Stapledon Arts because when I started to teach in the South Bronx, my students [were] from all over the diaspora… different countries in Africa: Burkina Faso, Ghana, Nigeria, and then you know, having students from Honduras and Guyana, Mexico, Dominican Republic; my students were Black and Brown. And so I just wanted to create a space to really change that narrative around who is an artist who can teach art, what does a career in art look like. And so that’s what Stapledon Arts was birthed out of. […] That’s why our mission is to inspire emerging artists.
And when I say emerging, I don’t just mean the adults who want to practice, I’m also speaking about a young child; they’re emerging also, and as well as art professionals. So not just the artists who [are] creating to put art on the walls, but who are the other players in the ecosystem? So thinking about the museum curators, the art historian, thinking about the mural artists, and now in art supplies. […]I started Stapledon Arts as a community to highlight and amplify the different people in the ecosystem impacting the art world, and as I was doing that, it dawned on me, like there’s a push to support Black artists, and I’m like, “Well, who’s creating the art materials they’re using?” Just thinking about the entire ecosystem. […] When I started to do more research, I realized that the major companies in the United States who are art suppliers are from families, where it’s been a part of their family for years, where they’re creating art supplies, and they’re well known in their major names, or their companies that are predominated by white and white males. […]I became curious about what it could look like if there [were] art supplies for inclusive groups. […] The more that I thought about it, it was kind of on the back-burner.
But The Melanin Series, specifically, was birthed out of work in the classroom. […] Again, I’ve been creating art since I was four, and I’ve been art students have privileged to be at performing and visual arts schools, the school that I taught at in the South Bronx did not have an art teacher prior to me, so when I started teaching there I had to build the art program from scratch. There were no art supplies, there wasn’t even an art classroom designated for me. […]I had to really do a lot of challenging work to change the culture and value of art in that space. As a result, a lot of my students did not have art for many years prior to me, beyond the fact that there was an art teacher before I got there. But also, some of them didn’t have art since third grade, maybe seventh grade, and they’re coming to me as a 10th grader. I had the challenge of working with students and encouraging students who no longer saw the value [of art] because society said focus on test scores, or students who are really excited about art, but this is like the first time they’re having a true art teacher and the opportunity to really engage.
[…]So self portraits [were] often one of the most requested assignments; I always start every year asking students “Well, what do you want to create? What do you want to learn about art? What do you want to be able to to those materials?” And at that age, high school realism is something that a lot of students are obsessed with, or creating characters. […]Portraits [were] the number one requested assignment. As a result, I looked for skin-tone paints, because I was battling multiple barriers: large class sizes, where I’m the one teacher in a room of 34 kids, a short amount of time where the class is only 45 minutes, and then like I shared earlier, students who are coming in with huge gaps of knowledge. Just like anything, in order to feel confident in art you need to be able to create consistently with people who are there encouraging you, and sharing the value and importance of it. So now, I’m with a group of students who want to make self portraits, and how do I meet them where they are? […]I set out to find skin-tone paints, and high schoolers–high schoolers in the Bronx are very candid and honest. […]I will try different brands, and they will share, “Yo Miss, like this paint is wack… like when we’re gonna use the good paint? Like where the like the acrylic paint at? Or, y’know, “I don’t see myself like in these colors, you know, I’m lighter or darker, or I can’t find the right skin tone.” And so year after year, I would try a different brand, I would try a different quality. That is when I started to go back to that initial thought, like, “Who’s making the art supplies? Who’s creating it? And who are they creating it for?” And so that is what inspired Melanin Series; the initial question of representation in the ecosystem, even down to the materials to then see this barrier in my classroom, and thinking, Okay, here’s a problem. “How do I bring this curiosity and this problem together to create a solution?” […]That’s how the work of Stapledon Arts transformed beyond just creating representation of Black and Brown artists and the ecosystem of the art world to now recreating the materials that [are] also inclusive, and representative– representative of the students and the artists we want to inspire.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Understood, that is a wonderful, wonderful example of creating out of lack… creating out of need. I want to dive in a little bit deeper to hear about the history of the Melanin Series; is this your first inclusive design project and did data play a role in your design inception? And if so, would you mind telling us a little bit about that?
Charlecia Joy
So yes, this is the first inclusive design project in terms of a product, I believe most of my design work is through the lessons that I teach the students. And so in creating this product, data did play a role, like I shared I’ve been teaching in the role of art education for about a decade now., and self portraits is one of the most requested assignments. It’s something that you see young children do because it’s a way for them to explore identity and see themselves. Artistic development basically is a study or concept around how students grow in their artistic skills, and what types of forms they create. You go from early childhood and creating the forming the self, the identity, and then you move through understanding your communities to larger societies, and it just repeats itself when students reach adolescence, because we’re always coming back to that cycle. […]Knowing that self portraits was one of the most requested assignments for kids, but also that it’s a part of their identity development in art is one of the things that inspired Melanin Series. Then working with the population I worked with, again, I taught in the South Bronx, and 85% of students in New York City, which is the largest school district in the nation, are students of color, whereas 74% of their art teachers are white. And so there’s a disproportion between the students who are being taught, to their art teachers, and seeing the representation in them; which is in direct correlation to the materials that are being given… the content that is being taught, and which artists are being featured. […] Being a Black woman, who is a first generation–I feel like South Florida and New York have that in common that there’s a lot of immigrant populations from the Caribbean and beyond–there are a lot of students of color who are from different language backgrounds. […]Understanding artistic development, understanding the demographics within New York City, understanding the demographics in my school, were data points that let me know that test was needed, but then, moving deeper into the creation of Melanin Series, students were directly involved with the process of coming up with the colors and testing the quality of the paint. There was what we’ll call customer discovery; students testing it out and giving feedback. So I’ve had over a quarter of 50 students involved in that process. So 300 surveys throughout the entire planning, research and discovery, the 50 core students, specifically testing the colors, testing the paint, and giving that feedback, then they were the first ones who were engaged.
The second set of people who were engaged was another core 40, Black and Brown art teachers from across the nation, who were able to test the paint and give feedback on the quality and what type of finish they would want this acrylic to have, and then there were, like I said, 300 surveys around color theory and race, around self portraits in the classroom, and if there’s difficulty in teaching students of color around teachers choosing to teach self portraits, using skin tone colors, because in art, you can use different colors, you can choose to do a grayscale, you can choose to use monochromatic. By far, what I’ve learned is that white teachers tend to steer away from teaching self portraits because of the concern of mixing the colors. And Black and Brown teachers, because of the necessity and the comfortability, have taught themselves how to figure it out, but still presents a challenge because of the limitations on time in the classroom, as well as the class sizes. So it still was a challenge, even if they did have comfort in mixing skin-tone colors. I also was able to work with and participate as a part of the School of Visual Arts art in education Master’s Program, there was a student at the time that I was doing my research, who was creating a thesis on discussing race and self portraits in the classroom. […]I was invited to share my experience with her, and some of the data also came from the work that she was doing in her independent interviews for her thesis. Her thesis came out of witnessing younger students, I again, teach high school, but younger elementary students working on portraits, and overhearing a conversation of [an] immigrant student who was speaking to a white student sharing and saying–I forget her ethnicity–but sharing to the white student that, “You’re so lucky that your skin is white, and it’s easy for you to create your portrait.” […]That’s what birthed her research. And so all that to say there’s a lot of data out there, there’s a lot of artists who are doing work around this; There’s actually a book called race in our education by Dr. Julio Cruz. […]She has a section in our book that talks about skin-tone, color, and actually remarks on other brands, and how they’ve approached skin-tone color. There’s also another artist who’s worked with Pantone and portraiture around skin tone, color resilient artists, I believe, Angela Das, is her name. […]I’ve seen her exhibition a couple of times that talks about it is just a color and how many different ethnicities share the same Pantone color, and that the race is just a construct. {…]In doing my own research, knowing the demographics in the schools that I work in, and doing the discovery and testing with students and other BIPOC art teachers, being a part of someone else’s ongoing thesis, and looking to people who are doing work, scholarly work, writing books and doing exhibitions in the field. These were all things that went into the creation of Melanin Series.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
That’s wonderful and amazing. I really appreciate you sharing how much information how much knowledge there is available, how much we can use that information as data points in either driving forward ensuring that we’re able to find representation and spaces of inclusion for ourselves. And I love how you’re on this trajectory to craft the space within education and you said something that struck me about how teachers who are of a dominant majority ethnic group or race tend to teach, they do know, they do know that the technical aspects of mixing paints or mixing colors to be able to achieve realistic skin tone representation, but they don’t have the time to take to then be able to pass on that knowledge within their classrooms.
Charlecia Joy
To correct that statement a little bit, they don’t a lot of a lot, there’s there’s lack of color theory, even in teaching how to mix a skin-tone, yet, and so Black and Brown artists have figured it out because of the representation in necessity, whereas it’s not taught in art schools. So then our dominant ethnic white counterparts aren’t even given the tools unless they choose to learn it for themselves. For them, it’s a choice to learn i, whereas for Black and Brown artists and art educators, it’s not because it’s a part of our lived experience. And so it’s not taught as a foundational tool for all art teachers to have to then pass on…then you’re left with some people choosing to not engage.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Thank you for that clarification. I was trying to get a little bit more information about that. Is it an inability to take the time? Like, is the time the essence that’s not available? Or is it actually even further up the funnel? Like, is there no capacity, that that type of theory, that type of skill has not been taught? And so out of necessity, again, crafting together and putting together something that’s missing? For a lot of people who are practicing different forms of art? Would you please share some insights on your observations and experiences as a Black artist, and that of other Black and Brown students and creators, whether they have access to and representation and inclusion within other places of arts, for example, within visual art spaces, so we’ve been talking about the classroom, and the necessity of even starting at the basics, but once the classroom environment is set up in a manner that people do have access to then be able to, to represent themselves and feel included to be able to craft art that feels inclusive of them? What then have their or yours and yours been within a larger context of being an artist? Do you see yourself represented? Do you not see yourself represented? Do you see any movement towards opening up to being more diverse, to have a more diverse representation, as artists, as crafters have a form of knowledge and skill?
Charlecia Joy
For me, I believe that it’s complex, and I say that because I have the privilege of coming from a space that was diverse, and having artists who are practicing in their homes in their schools, who look like me. And then again, as I continue to move throughout my education and move from where I grew up, I start to see that that is not the case. […]What I’m learning is that there are strong communities of people of color, and in South Florida specifically, I remember going to Art Basel before it became a pop culture thing, and it was just about the Miami art scene, and only galleries and practicing artists and museums, and young emerging artists were present. Now it’s exploded and become a pop culture thing where now there’s parties and concerts and things of that nature. They’re in that space, there was not a lot of art that represented people of color and not just in the sense of portraiture, right. As much as this was created as a necessity and a response to my students, I have more of an affinity towards abstract works. And I create more abstract works. And so one thing that I can say is, throughout my career, I didn’t see a large display of Black abstract artists, there was this idea of what Black art was. It had to look a certain way, be about certain themes and topics…so, it’s not just about seeing the representation of Black artwork, but seeing it in its complexities, in its variety, beyond the monolith of what I think has become the Black art. […]I believe that there has been communities and that were created.[…]In a lot of my research and leaving South Florida, you know, I got to learn about institutions that were created to do exactly that. So, you know, on the National Gallery in DC, we have the African American Smithsonian museum that came, I believe, in 2016. But prior to that, there were institutions such as a Studio Museum that came out in I think, the 60s in New York and Harlem, you have the Caribbean culture of African Americans of African diasporic, CCC, Adi is an acronym. They’re also in Harlem, there have been African American museums and filling in Chicago, in you know, Oakland, and a lot of these chocolate cities, right, like, where we are, we create community and spaces for each other. And so I believe when you when you’re in those spaces, there’s a ton of Black artists creating art in various forms. And then thinking about HBCUs that have art programs and galleries and spaces, right? You know, I think about the Harlem Renaissance and how that was a community of people creating, so I know that there’s communities of Black artists learn more about the Chicano art movements, indigenous art spaces, they’re there. One thing about people of color will find each other and create our spaces, right. So those exists, and I want to amplify them.
Now, when we start thinking about what is deemed, by society as the art capitals like the Met, museum, that is where you see less of us, Kerry, James Marshall, I believe 2016 was the first Black artist to have a solo show at the Met. And it was in the member.[…] I went out of my way to learn about these Black artists, because even though I had Black art around me, even Black teachers, we were more consumed with practicing and creating, but not when I took art history, it wasn’t embedded in the art history. The art history is Eurocentric, so who I was learning about, even though I had artists around me, who were creating, who looked like me, the artists that I was learning about [were] Eurocentric, and don’t get me wrong, there’s some of those practices that I really adore, but again, even when Black art was represented, you do hear about the Harlem Renaissance. But you don’t hear about artists who lived well before that time, or contemporary artists who [were] living well after that time. So it’s kind of like in a time capsule.
[…] I know, in the Department of Education in New York City, there’s a push for culturally responsive sustaining education. And that is not just in the education system. It’s happening in museums where people are hearing the alarm of having to be more inclusive…so, they’re starting to do it. And you’re starting to see more solo exhibitions, or group shows of artists of color. […] I think that there is a push for it in larger institutions, but I don’t know that they are created with the right infrastructure to do it, do it well and sustain it beyond this moment.
DédéTetsubayashi
Very, very well said, and I appreciate you sharing that. It also makes me want to find out more about even though there is a push now to to be more inclusive and to diversify, New York City and the Bronx specifically, second only to Queens is such a culturally rich and diverse space. How has your time teaching there influenced your work, your life, and the bridge that you’ve created between the two with the creation of Stapleton Arts? And how are you using that as a platform to create more equitable outcomes for the future?
Charlecia Joy
Yeah, the beauty of New York City is you get to experience the world without leaving the city, because there are so many different cultures right here. […] While my experience was always rich with Black and Brown culture that was moreso drenched with Caribbean culture and Latinx culture, which is still here. When I started teaching in the Bronx, specifically, I was exposed to people from countries from the depths from the continent, beyond what I experienced when I was living in South Florida. […]You know, different religions, and their practices, different native languages being spoken; Spanish is one that I’m familiar with from South Florida, and a lot of my students are Dominican, but even the Spanish dialects are different depending on the country that you’re from. Having students from Honduras, and having students from Mexico and Peru, and being exposed to their dialects, the way that they pronounce things, or being able to be a fly on the wall for the conversations with students are having, y’know? I still remember, one day in my class, my Puerto Rican students, and my Dominican students were debating what is the hard part of rice stays at the bottom of the pot and what it’s called in their cultures, and the in them trying to experience a vehicle English speaker, right? being privy to, to those conversations, or having students from Gambia and Burkina Faso. And, you know, me like having to educate myself, Oh, you’re from Burkina Faso like, so I’m going home and looking specifically where that country is on the continent.
I think, excited to learn not from a movie not from a book, but from my students and their lived experiences, and then to see it play out in their artwork. And so when we were to projects that would allow them to show their identity for them to choose which parts of identities they want to show and not limited to their ethnicity or country of origin or nationality. But for us to really dissect different parts of people’s identities and which ones people hold closer to their heart, I have more of a affinity to abstract work, not necessarily portraiture, and to see the students be so vulnerable and share and want to create, and build and form and dissect and recreate their identity in the classroom is a beautiful thing. And so that came through the diversity of their languages, ethnicities, their countries of origin, some students are, you know, coming straight from their home countries and other students is their first generation like me, where their parents are from there, but you’re raised in that culture in your house. So that’s all you know. And so it definitely influenced me a lot. And I know that in New York City, like you said, in Queens is the most diverse borough. I’m sure it would even go deeper. If I was somewhere in quotes. It’s exciting, that I get to learn so much from people and their lived experiences and not have a preconceived notion based off of what media told me or preconceived notion off of books that may be incorrect. So
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Thank you, without falling into, in a sense, creating the spaces for your students to be able to read express themselves as fully and authentically as possible. Would you say that the ways in which your products and the work that you’re doing for representation and Inclusion in the Arts, would you say that you’re intentionally divesting from whiteness as the status quo to create these additional equitable potential futures for for yourself and for your students?
Charlecia Joy
I definitely think I’m intentionally divesting. But I think it’s more of an addition mindset than anything, because again, in creating these products, I started off with the pain-point in my classroom, and then thinking about the revolution of Fenty, and the, y’know, foundations that were created as inspiration again, thinking about representation in different industries. And so I was creating darker skin tones, I was looking at darker skin tones in your mind, based off of my lived experience, but again, my classroom and their skin tones were so diverse, that inviting students in and having them give feedback. Listening to students share and going back to the heart of it being art. And thinking about the construct that race is, you’ll notice that within the 12 colors that [were] selected, there are a lot of lighter colors, because that’s not what determines your ethnicity and nationality or your race, because some of those lighter tones are the same exact tones that the majority and white people wear every day. So I think it’s definitely divesting, but at the same time adding a larger, more complex, but beautiful narrative of what inclusion really is. It initially started with this curiosity and desire to create art supplies… and this is the first product and through conversations with other art teachers, and artists, they’ve shared wanting to see these colors in different materials. But also for me, thinking about abilities, thinking about how much further we can go[…] it’s… I don’t want to land on divesting, because it’s then to say that they were the sole inspiration and they weren’t
Dédé Tetsubayashi
At all– not the sole inspiration. I love how you categorize it as divesting and building additional space for belonging and for being; I really liked how you put that. We are at our end, but I do have a bonus question that I would love your thoughts on, and it relates to using AI or algorithms to expand on top of art, as I’ve seen trending on the IG recently. There are quite a few artists who are I think entering stencils or foundation pieces of art for like a basic starting point for art and then having this tool expand on it. I would love to hear your thoughts as to whether that continues to be art representative of folks, and then what you think of that tool being able to provide in terms of expanding upon our understanding of who gets to create art and what is art?
Charlecia Joy
I’ve read a lot of commentary and comments from artists, and I’m not a digital creator. I’ve engaged but that’s not my way of creating by choice. However, going back to not divesting but adding I think that it’s an additional tool. And when we think of inclusion and access, I know that sometimes working with physical materials could lend a limitation; depending on people’s various abilities, and so now this creates an opportunity to provide another way for someone who wants to create. And so for that reason, I think that it’s a beautiful addition.
I think that people who are curious and always interested in learning will try new things, […] I’ve seen artists who are amazing with traditional materials engage with digital, and even AI. I think also, as an artist, there’s a wealth of imagination and ideas in my mind. So going back to the question about time, AI helps bring ideas to life in a shorter amount of time. […] thinking about the addition that it provides for those with various abilities, the resource it provides for people who have a wealth of ideas and limited time, and just for continued exploration, for people who may be more comfortable with traditional art, but they want to expand and engage different ways of creating to then go back to their traditional ways of creating to add new techniques, I think that there’s room for additions, and everyone is free to decide how they are comfortable and excited and want to create. […] It’s still art, I think that like, it’s amazing that people can think and create in this technological world. That may not be a place that I’m comfortable in, some of it may come from a lack of exposure, and time to create in that way to become comfortable, but I don’t see that there’s anything wrong with it, there’s always going to be a wider gap and barrier for people, which is why I think products like Melanin Series, like it’s just never gonna go away, because there just needs to be multiple points of access for creating and expression and innovation. But I think that is still art, there’s all so there’s always going to be issues of barriers and the gap in different underserved communities. And then there’s going to be the issue of copyright and intellectual property and regulating those things. And to ensure that specifically, people of color who are engaged are not continuously being marginalized when they do engage in these new ways of creating. So yeah, I think it’s exciting. It’s a great tool. I think it’s there for anyone who wants to do it. I think it’s a great resource. But I also see the challenges and barriers that come with it.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
I appreciate you sharing your perspective on that. And I have to say I, if it’s an additive, then I think it can only be a positive additive, especially if it’s providing access to those with disabilities or inability to create in other ways. Of course, it does open us up to asking who is in fact the creator, depending on how that tool is used.
Charlecia Joy
Yeah, I mean, what’s interesting about that part and who is the creator is and now having more people of color being the one that codes and create these AI tools.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly.
Dede Tetsubayashi
So maybe another discussion for another day.
Charlecia Joy
Yes. This was great. Thank you so much.
Dédé Tetsubayashi
Thank you for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Charlecia Joy
Again, I’m the founder of Stapleton arts. Our mission is to inspire Black and Brown emerging artists and art professionals through art education. So all that we do is to educate people through art so that they can impact the communities around them. And so we also developed m
Melanin Series that we talked about in depth it is available on our website, which is stapledonarts.org, that staple in D-O-N arts with an “S’ dot org. And you can find Melanin Series in the shop. If you are an art educator, teacher, nonprofit, providing education services, we offer an exclusive price for bulk orders, if you’re buying like a classroom set. So you can make sure that you email us at partner at Stapledon arts.org. To learn more about those exclusive prices for people ordering bulk orders, and then I’m not sure when this is going to air but we will be announcing that Melanin series is also available on Donors Choose, which is a nonprofit platform that allows teachers who may be in underfunded schools to have the opportunity to create projects on their platform to get the tools and materials they need to serve their students, and donors will then pay for those projects in Melanin Series is available for teachers to add to their projects on Donors Choose as well.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Thank you very much for joining us Charleicia, it’s been a pleasure. And to the audience. It’s been another episode of Brave Spaces Roundtable. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Charlecia Joy
Thank you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai