On this episode of the Brave Spaces Roundtable podcast, we welcome Olanike Ayomide-Mensah, DEI strategist, multidisciplinary creative, and founder of Mosaic Consulting to discuss her journey to and through the integral work of diverse, equitable, and inclusive leadership development. Olanike’s commitment to advancing to action, and increasing communication and education around more just, equitable workplaces is unwavering. Here are links to her TedxCharlotte talk, “The Big Lie” and her current Innerplicity course, “Disrupting Workplace Inequity“, additional resources and a full transcript of this episode can be found below.
- Olanike’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olanike/ <https://www.linkedin.com/in/olanike/
- Olanike’s LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/mosaic_4equity
- Mosaic Consulting LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaic4equity
- Mosaic Consulting website: https://www.mosaic4equity.com/
- Mosaic Consulting Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mosaic_4equity/
Dede Tetsubayashi
All right. Hello, everyone. I’m your host, Dr. Dede Tetsubayashi, founder and CEO of incluu; a brave spaces consultancy. We work at the intersection of technology, and diversity, equity and inclusion, ethics and product. We are here today for another Brave Spaces Roundtable with special guest Olanike Ayomide-Mensah. Olanike, can you please introduce yourself and tell us about the work that you do? And what drew you to that work?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Sure. Hi, um, first of all, thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here–to have this conversation today.
So I am My name is Olanike, and I am a DEI strategist. And what that means is, I partner with people and with workplaces to help make that workplace work for each of the people that are in it. I founded Mosaic Consulting, which is a consulting practice that allows us to partner with folks to do that work. And so our work sits at the intersection of leadership development, and all things diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Thank you so much for that introduction. Can you give us a little bit more information about what drew you to that work, why you think it’s important, and why you continue to do it?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So, why did I get into this work? Why am I drawn to this work? I was naturally curious, growing up. So, I think that curiosity paired with my life experiences from childhood really; which was what I now know to be a third culture kid. Meaning that my family moves back and forth between the United States and Nigeria, where where my family’s from–where my people are from, a couple of times between birth and the age of 10. So by the age of 10, we had gone from the US to Nigeria, and Nigeria back to the US. And, you know, I kind of came back to the United States at an interesting developmental phase where I was sort of in the last parts of elementary school going into high school. And I just learned a lot of how to absorb and learn a lot in that time period, I went from very much being in a place where I felt like I 100% belonged; I didn’t even have to second-guess it or think about it, to a place where I was definitely not a part–or it did not feel like I belonged. I didn’t, frankly, and so the ability to sort of move from one culture to the next. Even within the United States, I felt like I really grew up at the intersection of two or three different sub-kind-of-subcultures. Even in my experience, growing up here, just sort of planted the seeds of just wanting everybody to feel like they belong and wanting people to be treated fairly and equitably. And I didn’t have that language then. But that’s what I know it to be now. And so that started to show up in the kinds of like jobs that I would take in college and the kinds of programs that I would volunteer for. Ultimately, it showed up in the way that I showed up at work, which was always advocating on behalf of people, especially when I was in middle management. And then, as I moved up into higher–into the higher ranks of leadership, like that was just a part of what I was always doing in the workplace. And for a lot of those workplaces, I served as an internal DEI consultant on top of whatever my actual job was. And so somewhere along the way, I’m like, “You know what, I want to do this on myself”. I want this to be what I do, primarily, instead of the additional things that I do on the side. And so that’s how Mosaic was born. I was always a really strong manager and a strong leader, I was able to sort of raise up and develop other people into managers and leaders. And so that’s a passion of mine. And that work has always been embedded with equity principles. So I get to do that along with just strictly DEI work audits and assessments and strategic plans and workshop, facilitation and speaking, and all that kind of stuff. So that’s how I got here.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Fabulous, that resonates so much with me and relates. I related a lot to how I got started with the work that we do at incluu as well. I’m also a third culture kid and until recently, I didn’t even realize that was a term and it’s a thing. It’s a thing, I’m also a transracial adoptee like I didn’t know that With such a thing as a transracial adoptee, I’ve always been like, I was born in this country. And my adoptive mom is white, and growing up, people would be like, Is that really your mom? Like? Is that your real mom? Like, all sorts of questions. But yes, thank you so much for sharing that. I’m on the on the heels of that. I’m really curious to find out how your work as an advocate, standing up for others, doing that work internally for others has transitioned into doing this as part of Mosaic, right, through your consultancy? And in your experience? What do you think have been critical to create a strong strategy for diversity, equity, inclusion, or counter… On the counter side, what do you think in your experience, are signs of a strategy that is doomed to fail? In the work that you’ve done with with other organizations?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Gotcha. Okay. So, I probably have a list of 20 things on either side. So I’m only going to speak to a couple. I actually have a framework that I developed, though, it’s sort of, you know, like, here are the six things you need to know–or, the six pillars that need to be accounted for in any successful DEI strategy. So, I’ll talk about a couple of those things. But–but, then I want to talk about some of the things that are basically setting you up.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Absolutely.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So on the setting you up for success side, I would say data gathering is key. And I know we’re going to talk about that, I think a little bit later, so I won’t give too much away right now. But I have to mention it as part of a key element of your strategy is gathering data. Because we still work in the types of workplaces that we do, if you’re not tracking it, if it’s not measured, nobody cares about it. Right, wrong or indifferent. That’s just what it is; right? And so we have to get that data. And most workplace leaders pride themselves on making data-informed decisions. And you can gather data around these sort of soft and fuzzy things like culture, and belonging, and those are things you can gather data around. And so that’s the first thing that I would say, is start gathering that information. And it’s really important to be able to disaggregate the data, so you can really tell how different pockets of your population are faring in the workplace. So there’s that. Accountability is really important, and that has to go from the most senior person all the way through to the least senior person in your organization; the new hire individual contributors that just started like yesterday, all the way up to the CEO, founder, and I would even say, depending on whether you’re in the nonprofit, or in the corporate structure, like are both really that it also actually goes up to the board level in either scenario really.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Agreed. Agreed. And that’s something I’d love to get to also like, what is accountability? And why do why are we more afraid of that term? Right?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah, yes, yes, we can definitely dig into that. So, the third one that I’ll mention is a learning stance. So a lot of people call the DEI work, like the DEI journey, either individually, they’re on this, you know, equity or anti-oppression, you know, like awareness journey, or whatever, whatever you want to call it. Or, as an institution, people use that analogy a lot. And I also use that analogy a lot, even though I have a bit of an issue with it, because the journey sort of–sort of insinuates that there’s an end there’s a destination. And unless any of us that are alive today are going to go to be four or 500 plus years old, we’re not going to see that destination, there is no there- there. There is no end.
Dede Tetsubayashi
There isn’t–continuing education.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
No- we… even for those of us that hold marginalized identities that have had these experiences, we are still learning and anyone that tells you that they’re an expert, and don’t have to learn anything else, like run. Don’t hire them, don’t work with them. You know, like I am humbled all the time when I’m like, “Oh, wow. Okay, okay, DEI expert, you know, check your own bias!” Right? Like, but this is some–it’s a journey that we’re all on. And so, that learning stance is really important and it’s important on an individual level, and it’s also important on an organizational level that as an institution, you’re also taking a learning stance, so that you can continue to take a new Information and evolve as your environment calls for it. So the one thing that I’ll say, just to answer the flip side, I said, I wanted to answer the flip side of what–what will definitely set you up for failure is, you know, trying to look the part, trying to play the part without actually being the part, so to speak. So just I mean, put simply, it’s just being performative.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And sometimes people don’t even recognize that they are being performative. Which, which is tricky. But but a lot of y’all know that…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Oh, yes.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
You’re just writing the statement and putting, you know, getting hiring that consultant so you can say that you did it. But when it comes to actually putting those new policies and practices and procedures into place, when it comes to actually resourcing people with the budget, that they need to do this work, with the team that they need to pull that action plan off, that’s where you start to see, you know, limited follow-through. So I would say that, on the flip side, you know, like, if you’re going to do this work, do it, do it right, and do it well from the beginning. Because if you’re being performative and only sort of taking, you know, half steps forward, and not really fully committing your, your institution, your workplace, yourself to the journey. Alright, so the journey, the work that you’re doing, you’re actually going to waste more time and waste more money, and energy and goodwill, and you’re going to waste trust, because people are not going to trust you. So it’s more costly to, to fumble it–to fumble the ball.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Absolutely.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So do it right.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Do it right from the beginning, take the time that’s necessary recognize that it is a long term journey. And there isn’t necessarily an end like, just like you said at the beginning, it’s not. It’s not like a project whereby there’s a start, a middle, and an end. And then that’s it. Yeah.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah. Yeah.
Dede Tetsubayashi
So how, in working with people who are ready, people who are not ready, and everything in between, how do you help people find their place in doing the work, quote, unquote? Or how, you know, however, you want to phrase that? What is your approach? And do you think that there are certain things that people should keep in mind as they go through this journey?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So, you know, typically, when–when working with folks, I am trying to assess where they’re starting from. So how, if it’s an individual, so sometimes I’ll provide coaching and advising to the people and culture director or the, you know, Director of HR or whoever is the person inside the workplace that’s in charge of their DEI initiative. And so in those– in those coaching conversations, I’m trying to help… I’m trying to understand where they’re starting from and help them understand where they’re starting from and, and how much more work is ahead of them. So there’s a, there’s sort of like a placement piece in the beginning, like, where are you starting form? I will say that that’s important too, because I prefer to work with clients who have already gotten through the sort of grassroots, we’re still exploring whether or not this is a direction we want to go in.
I like to work with clients that have already decided this is what they’re doing. Right? And so at minimum, when I’m looking to work with someone, that’s sort of what I’m looking for from the beginning– at the start of the conversation; have you decided? Have you committed and what is the nature of that commitment? So, if I’m asking questions of the individual, I want to know how they would describe that. What does that look like an action? If I’m asking that workplace. If I’m asking a potential client about their workplace, it’s the same–it’s the same question; where’s your leadership with this? What’s the nature of their buy-in or commitment, you know, etc. And so that’s, that’s really important, because that’s how I, as a consultant can figure out where we can take you next, how we can get you there, what sort of assessment tools do we need? You know, sometimes I’m working with someone and they’ve already got three years of diversity and inclusion survey data, and sometimes they have nothing. So we’re starting from scratch with sort of discovery exercises, activities, conversations, focus groups, that sort of thing. And so that–that’s, that’s typically the starting point is, where are you? Have you gotten to To the point of, I no longer need to be compelled to do this, I’m ready to do this? And then from there, what’s the nature? Like we have, you know, nonprofits that are 20 people, and tech companies that are 300 plus people, right? So there’s a wide range, and there are different tools that we can put together to help, you know, a small organization sort of see progress and move forward, that would not be applicable for a larger institution and vice versa.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right. That’s…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
I don’t know if I answered your question.
Dede Tetsubayashi
I think– I mean, we’re talking about it, and I don’t think there’s any right answer to the question. It’s, basically like… and it’s connected to the next question that I have, which is, like, is there an organizational structure that is fundamental to doing the work and you, you already touched on that, like, it goes all the way from individual contributor to executive leadership, to even the board. And in starting the journey, you put a pin into where they are on that journey, all the different levels of progress on that journey, but you also break the players into groupings, like doers, makers, change makers, the catalyst, those who are volunteers, and maybe burns out. How do you place them within this larger overall structure that is necessary for the work to be done?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah, and so that’s, you know, that brings in an element of change management. So if we’re working on our mid to long term, you know, strategy, we need to understand who the players are, right? Who are those champions, who are the folks that are going to be in the core team of visionaries that are sort of telling the story and bring everybody along? Who are the resistors, and there’s different, there’s various levels. There are those that are like, there’s–you’re not gonna win them back. They’ve been burned too many times.
Dede Tetsubayashi
They’re gone-gone.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And then they’re just right–they’re gone. And then there are those that are questioning and they just need some more information, they need clearer communication, and they’ll come along, and we need to speak to whatever their fears are. Because really, you know, humans don’t like change, we like our comfort zones. And when things start to happen, especially when things start to happen, especially things that are going to impact our workplace where we make our money? You know, self preservation.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Absolutely.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
You start to wonder, what does this mean for me? And so when you’re doing DEI work, like anything else, like any other major initiative in a workplace, you have to be able to answer those change management questions. Why are we doing this? What is the risk if we don’t do this? Right? And what does this mean? What does this mean for the marketing team, which is different maybe from your communications team, which is different from your product, or programs team, which is different from if you’re in the nonprofit space, you’re funding, your development and fundraising team, which is different from engineering, and from sales, and like, all these different functions, right? The finance and accounting team, you have to be able to answer the questions about what that means for them; how is their work going to change and who’s going to help them do that change? And so, it’s really, it is really important to seek help from consultants, multiple consultants, because the same consultant may not be able to help you with all of that.
But it’s really important that you have a strategy and a plan in place to sort of start from foundational things that you need to have, and then build out your DEI strategy from there and make sure that it’s incorporated into every aspect of that workplace so that it can be successful.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right. I really like how you pointed out that it’s really important to have that structure in place, and that organizations, bringing consultants, and sometimes multiple consultants. Something that I don’t think a lot of companies, organizations, nonprofits, whoever we’re working with, understand is that they want one person to be able to do everything, right? But it’s not even possible within their own organization to have a person who does everything. And, I truly believe in… that people do exist, who are literally Jacks of all trades, or Janes of all trades, and I don’t mean that in the negative sense that that term has started to take on. In the sense, that… I mean it in the sense of a Jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one. We don’t find people who are a master of all; it’s really hard. And it’s hard to expect that you can find one consultant who’s gonna help you go through this long-term journey all on their own, and they don’t reach out to multiple people. And for me, it’s important for, for me to partner with other people in my ecosystem, like if we get a reach out from someone who is at the beginning of their journey and not focusing on product not focusing on ethical tech development. I’m gonna bring in my partnerss like you, like Jennifer…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Ditto! Right.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right? Hello?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Product development? What? Let me call incluu, because this is not my wheelhouse. Yeah.
Dede Tetsubayashi
And I don’t know why it’s so difficult for companies to to grasp that. And I feel like it comes back to that sense of understanding what it is that they’re trying to achieve. One, whatever goals that they have, and communicating that properly, but also making sure that they have people on board who are going to sponsor the work, step by step. And I think that’s sometimes one of the hardest things for us, as the consultants coming in, to convince those partners those those companies out. But in your experience, what have you found to be– or who I guess, have you found to be the hardest to convince or get get on board?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
It’s usually a like a, the person or the leaders who are underestimating this work, and don’t understand why it takes all that.
Dede Tetsubayashi
And why it’s even necessary. Like why–why is it important?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Why? Why do we have to do all that just tell me tell me the things I need to do. So I can go do it. And I’m like, it’s not a checkbox, right. It’s not a checklist. That’s the shortest route to flopping. And so I think the people that a lot of times, folks that are in leadership positions, depending on how long they’ve been there are just not used to other people being the expert.
And I probably should explain that a little bit more, I think they’re… Not to say that they’re not used to people having their areas of focus and their specialties or whatever, but they’ve been in business for 20,30 years, or whatever it’s been, they’ve got all the degrees, they took the classes or whatever, so they understand a little bit about accounting enough to have some expertise, and, you know, balance sheets, and, you know, loss and profits, statements and all of that, right. They’ve got a little bit–they took that marketing course and had that project. So they’ve gotten… they’ve been in work, they’ve been working long enough to know a little bit about that. And communications and fundraising, and, and all of these things, right? So they have some basis of knowledge. And then they want to do workplace equity work, and they start to sort of apply things from other, you know, lanes have their experience to that work. And I’m like, no, doesn’t work like that. And you’ve never studied this.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Nor have you necessarily had this experience.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Or have you exactly… And in fact, the things that you studied, are part of the problem that we are here to help you address. Yeah, so that you can do things differently, and more equitably. So the things, you know, are actually part of the problem. So how do you tell somebody that, right? So that’s when it gets really tough is when there is– there hasn’t been enough of awareness-raising and enough sort of like humility in the person for them to actually listen to what’s good for them right, for them to actually take a step back. And, you know, thankfully, we try to weed that…weed it out. But we try to weed it out or like figure it out before we actually commit to a client because if that’s where they are, we’re just not going to be able to work together. If you’re coming in wanting to dictate the solution…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Can we talk about that a little bit. Can we talk about that?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah. Okay, let’s stop right there. Let’s double-tapright there.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Double tap time. Let’s dig deep.
Uh huh. Why Is it? How is it–One, you know, you need support, hopefully, you know you need support, and you’ve reached out to the experts to help you with that, but you have a very, very well laid-out plan for how things must go. I feel like it, it is–it’s a coping mechanism in a way because, taking it back to therapy, when we go to therapy, we are going to therapy because we know we need help with something, and we know that we’re repeating patterns of behavior that may not be as healthy as we’re trying to be. So we’re going back to our safe space. I feel like those who are coming to the table with well laid-out plans for how they want things to go, they’re falling back on what makes them comfortable within a white supremacist culture. The very thing that they need to be acknowledging, that they need to be working against.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And there is a difference between a client who has been doing their work, you know, they’ve got folks in the DEI roles and the team, they’ve done assessments, and they’re coming because they’re further along on their journey, and they’re like, this is the plan that we have in place. These are the things and you know, help us review this, we need to reassess whether we’re going into phase two, or phase three of our strategic plan. For whoever’s listening…
Dede Tetsubayashi
There is a difference
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
That’s not what we’re talking about–we’re talking about brand new. We realize that discrimination is still happening. Racism is a thing still, oh, look, all the people of color that we say work here are in the lower non leadership levels of our organization. We didn’t never really thought about that before. Like they’re there at the beginning. Yeah. Right. And they’re dictating the solution to their workplace issues.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Precisely.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
I mean, it just, it just doesn’t work that way. You know, it is… that’s when you need to stop and start with just one-on-one or leadership level only coaching. Because there is a certain place from a mindset perspective that the powers that be, the folks that hold positional power in a workplace, there’s a certain mind frame like mindset that they need to be at, to be able to start this journey and commit to it and to get uncomfortable, to get embarrassed, to get humbled, and still be able to move through those moments and stay committed to this work. And…
Dede Tetsubayashi
I think, and I think one one thing that they’re not going into the space, understanding or believing is that they’re going into the space uncomfortable, and they know they have to sit with that uncomfortableness, but they’re not understanding that the ultimate end point of this journey, of these conversations–these hard conversations, is to understand that uncomfortableness is pushing against growth. Right? Is moving to a place where you have more understanding, more empathy, more sympathy, and you’re able to actually have these conversations in a respectful manner, and come up with plans in partnership and collaboration with those who you’ve been leaving out, or leaving behind. There is…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Absoutely.
Dede Tetsubayashi
There’s a reason to, I guess, the madness–quote, unquote.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah. But there, yeah, there’s, there’s a, there’s a reason for it, there’s a method to it. There’s a method to the madness. And yeah, there’s so much I mean, you can watch 100 TEDTalks about discomfort and pushing into like your–your growing edge or your learning edge; which is right outside of your comfort zone. And what’s interesting is that people, many, many people and many people that are in positions of power in workplaces, as far as it–as it relates to the isms, right, all the isms in the workplace, all the ways that people are experiencing gaps in their belonging and inequity. Folks that are… that are in the dominant, sort of power positions, in our institutions have not had to sit with discomfort as it relates to these isms. So we’re talking about racism, you know, or sexism, or homophobia, or ableism. All the– all the isms, we can keep on going right? And we typically at Mosaic start with race, we center race because it just cuts through every other ism. No matter which one it is, it is a global issue. And so we center that in our work, but we we focus on everything, but we do center and start with race, especially when we’re coaching folks in the United States, and when doing workshops in the United States, because it’s just evolved and transformed in such a unique way there. But yeah, so when you haven’t, when you have no competency, no experience, having a conversation about let’s learn about racism, and now you have to do it in a place where you’re supposed to be the boss, you’re supposed to be the leader is supposed to be […] this person, all these things, and people are pushing your buttons. And it’s personal…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Because it’s personal.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
It’s personal for all us, once we start swimming, in those topics, you’re in…you’re out of your comfort zone, and folks don’t realize like there’s a distinction between you being outside of your comfort zone and being uncomfortable and you actually being threatened, right, or you being in a in a space where you’re no longer safe.
Dede Tetsubayashi
There’s a big difference.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
There’s this spectrum, as soon as you’re outside your comfort zone, a lot of people are like, “I’m not safe!” You know, this is a safe space. Like, you’re… you’re uncomfortable, you’re uncomfortable and that’s ok.
Dede Tetsubayashi
And that we that we’re here to help them through that.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
I wanted to say somthing.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Oh, no, go ahead.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yes, yeah, we’re here to help you through it. And I wanted to say something there’s been– there was a conversation about discomfort on LinkedIn that I, I made some commentary on it was posted by other DEI, you know, sort of anti-oppression consultants. And there was, there was a conversation in like two or three different people’s pages about discomfort, and how it’s, you know, you should be doing this work in a way that doesn’t center…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Whiteness…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
White comfort, and whiteness. Right. And then, you know, people are responding. That was the first post, the second post, then said something, and they didn’t…none of these folks actually called each other out, but I know they know each other so I’m like, I think they’re responding to each other, so I don’t know. So the next consultant says, you know, that we should be thinking about discomfort as a tool in this work, and not as the end result. Because I think, you know, there’s some DEI practitioners out here that are like, I want to go make people uncomfortable, right? Because I need to make I need to, you know, ruffle your feathers, so you can get it, right. And Person B was like, No, it’s a tool, it’s not the outcome. And what I went on to say is, I don’t even think it’s a tool. It’s just the reality. If any member of a dominant group is coming into brand new awareness, that they are part of a broader societal picture, and they may not have ever thought about it before. They’re like, well, I wasn’t privileged. I grew up poor. And I, Felicia, you know what? They weren’t privileged. If they grew up poor in Appalachia, I know…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Context.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
However, context, it’s all position. Yeah, this society, exactly bestows power that you can tap into, depending on your skin color, whether you ever tap into it or not, right? And that’s what we’re talking about, you won’t necessarily see it happening. Right? Because you just don’t have those barriers that you have to you have to face. So when you’re coming into that awareness, and the way you’ve always thought about something is being moved and challenged in that way, it’s just uncomfortable, because it is. It’s not a too, it’s not a tactic, it’s not the goal, it’s just uncomfortable, because you’re human. Why wouldn’t you be uncomfortable when you’re learning that for the first time? And you feel like the scales are falling off your eyes. So, our job as facilitators in that space is to help you place that. Yes, I’m uncomfortable, but I’m not threatened. Yes, I’m uncomfortable. I feel like I’m being challenged.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
But it’s here.
Dede Tetsubayashi
But it’s here.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
The goal that is higher, that is more valuable than that discomfort is is liberation for everybody. True equality and equity for everyone. Right. And so it was really fascinating sort of like set of conversations and all the comments about this idea of, you know, making people uncomfortable as an outcome or as a tool. No, it’s just the reality.
Dede Tetsubayashi
That is a really interesting, it’s a really Oh, yes, it’s really interesting way of placing that, I would not have thought to consider using it as like, well as a goal of these conversations or doing the work overall. I might have seen it more as a tool along like one of the things that you expect, but taking a step back and thinking more about the steps that I would want to take people through, through the journey, it is just one of the mechanisms, one of the signs that indicate where we’re talking about the hard things, were recognizing that there are hard things that we need to look at and discuss, tease apart, and then decide how we move beyond that once we understand that there is discrepancy, there is injustice, there is inequity there is unequal, inqual–sorry, inequality, all of the bad things, right. But it’s just, it’s just one of the…it’s a symptom. It’s not a goal, it’s, it’s something that indicates you’re either moving forward in a direction that you should expect to be moving in, and once you hit that, then that’s the critical point where you have to be like, Okay, now I can actually deal with the cognitive dissonance, for example, or start to make those connections and be like, Aha, I’ve got the aha moment, we can start to move forward and start talking about how do we deal with it then?
Within all these conversations, you brought up earlier the importance of data, if we’re not collecting data, what are we doing? We’re collecting data about everything else. As good leaders, we want to call ourselves, you know, or at least we want to call ourselves good leaders when we’re using data to inform our decisions. But we’re not collecting data or the right kind of data, so what would you say about whether data is fundamental? Or like, would you say data is a fundamental pillar for successful DEI practices? And if so, what kind of data? And how should they be used?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yes, yes. This is the way data is used gets really interesting for me, because, yes, data is fundamental, let me just say that to start; data gathering, and assessing, and leveraging is foundational to this work. And there’s a lot of different types of data that needs to be gathered- I’ll talk about that in a moment-but, what I will say is that, in the absence of quality, you know, DEI related data, there’s other data that’s filling in those gaps. Right? There are… assumptions are filling, filling in the gaps in our knowledge, that we’re not filling with actual real data, our biases are playing in there. You know, for some of our leaders, outright discrimination is just running amok in the absence of that data. And so I do believe, actually, that most people want to live in a world and work in a place where equity is actually a thing. Where there is a presence of these diversity and inclusion strategies, they’re woven and embedded in a way that just makes everything better for everybody that steps into that workplace. I think most people like that utopia that I’m dreaming of. Like who wouldn’t want to be in that, in that in… that world and that workplace, right? A lot of–most people just don’t know how to get there, but there are the few who don’t want to get there because they like the way that things are now.
Dede Tetsubayashi
It’s in their benefit.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Bump whoever isnt able to…bump… exactly whoever whoever can’t you know, sort of be afforded the same opportunity, right? You know, whatever, right. Okay. So, in the absence of actual data, faux data-we’ll just call it faux data– is running amok and informing those decisions. So the thing that is interesting that I like to talk to people about is that just because you’re just starting a DEI initiative, and you were just looking at these numbers or focusing on this doesn’t mean that new things are happening, it’s been there, you just haven’t looked at it, you just haven’t paid attention to it. Your DEI, when I’m putting together a DEI action plan, I can sort of connect the dots to your employee engagement, your culture, your HR practices and policies, the way that you’re making decisions, when it comes to your spend… Like these things are happening and infiltrating there…it’s already there, we just haven’t paid attention to it. So the data gathering gives you a way–one way to pay better attention to what’s going on there.
And there’s lots of types of data that you can gather you can do, like… So we do a full equity audit, that’s the most comprehensive assessment that we have, that will survey staff people and ask for all their sort of identity markers, and there’s like, 15 questions that we ask. So it’s going beyond like race, gender, and sexuality, the top three, you know, as I like to call them, it goes, we we are really looking, because part of the data that we analyze, on the other hand is intersectionality. So if you’re holding multiple identities, what are those experiences looking like? And then we ask questions about how valued people feel, how professionally nurtured they feel in your workplace. So they feel like they’re really connected to their colleagues, and to the mission and vision of that workplace. And so we’re able to look at that data. We also have listening sessions and focus groups and one on one interviews with different key stakeholders, and all of that information allows us to put together a plan on the other side. That is a different type of data, usually, in that plan, we’re asking you to continue to extract data, particularly along the personnel cycle. So when people are in your hiring process, how are you tracking data in that in that context, and there are a lot of tools that will help you do that, across lines of difference, like, you know, the 15, maybe not all the 15 identity markers that we asked around in our in our survey, but you can get some good data from some of these tools that are out there and sort of see when different populations start to fall off in your pipeline, in your interview process. You can look at data around compensation, you can do a pay equity audit, which is its own thing, but you can also look at how you’re making decisions when you’re hiring people or when you’re promoting people. So there are lots of decision points along the personnel cycle, that if you just pick 10 of those and start gathering demographic–specifically demographic data, legally, gathering demographic data, among those decision points, the data will, I mean… you’ll see it, you’ll see–oh, it seems like once we get to this leadership level, only folks that are white are getting advanced into senior leadership roles; you know. You can start to see like data… like, that was my experience in one workplace is… we realized– two workplaces actually–when we started looking at this data, like wow, it’s very, very clear where like, where the ceiling is…
Dede Tetsubayashi
The correlation is…you can find the pattern….yeah
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah. So what is happening? Exactly what is happening once you get to VP, that means you can’t get where that’s keeping folks of color, marginalized identities from being able to like crack into that next level and be senior VPs. You know, what is happening when you’re a senior manager that you cannot… we’re not seeing many directors in these organizations with marginalized identities. So if you can start to see that, and then it allows you to prioritize your efforts because you’ve got solid data to make decisions.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes, I could not have said that better myself. One thing that we, we get asked for at incluu is to be able to share that data: parse it out into understandable pieces, but when we’re asked that, like, our response is usually who is trying to look at the data and for what reason? We’re able to share data overall that’s aggregated, but anything that goes below a certain level and to being able to start to identify personal information or PII, or start to pick out certain traits that you’re looking for, to correlate them to something that may not be correlated, is something that we get asked for from either executive leadership or the board. When they don’t fully understand that, by them having access to that data, they’re then going to turn around and say, oh, okay, we have a certain percentage of truancy in a school, and can we correlate that information to our Black and brown students, because they might be suffering more, or they might be of a lower socioeconomic class. And that’s not what we want to collect the data for. If we collect the data, and those who are going to use that information to understand the patterns of behavior in the organization, like if we’re not protecting people who are providing that information to us so that we can say, Okay, this is what’s happening, these are the correlations that we’re seeing, not what you expect to see, not what you’ve already hypothesized, then we can share certain aspects of that with you to help you get on to the next level. Like, what do you need to do to shore up this gap or to build a long term strategy whereby you’re being inclusive, equitable, and fair? I think those are two very different things. And people don’t fully understand that, they just hear data, and they’re like, oh, well, we can’t gather data, because we have to ask people for that information. And you can, you do want to know what you’re doing, because you want to be able to see what your patterns of behavior are.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And, you know, from from a workplace experience perspective, your people won’t be transparent and give you good data. If they know that you’re going to be able to get to the raw data level, in-house. I mean, I have been inside of companies, trying to get people to fill out employee engagement surveys, like no, no, we’re really gonna do something with it…
Dede Tetsubayashi
And they’re like nope–no
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
No, somebody, especially in tech, or like, somebody in here knows how to read this code and figure out that it was me, so I’m not doing it, or I’m just gonna go and tell him everything is great, even though it’s not because I don’t want that blowback. Right. And the number one complaint that the EEOC types of complaint that EEOC gets is blowback. It’s like I spoke up, and I and there was retaliation.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So it’s a real fear that your employees have, so when you have consultants that are taking on taking that aspect away, right, like doing the survey and gathering that data, protect them, because that, that way, you can actually get good information to do the thing that you say you want to do. Us giving you that raw data… First of all, when we do work, we’re very upfront about exactly who’s seen your data, we actually use a tool where we can even identify people individually. But when you have small sample sizes, and you turn that over to the company, while they can figure it, we have no idea who who’s who…
Dede Tetsubayashi
They can figure it out.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
They can figure it out. So with our clients, we don’t give them the raw data. And if we were to ever run into a client that wants that raw data in the future, it’s part of the like, upfront messaging, right. So when you when you click in on to take our survey, you will see the message that says exactly where your data is going, and, and let the chips fall where they may.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Exactly
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
I would be remiss if I didn’t mention GDPR, which is data privacy regulation. So especially if there are other dei consultants that are gathering personal information about staff, employees, clients, you know, consumers as whatever. If you’re either working with people that are in Europe, or even California has stricter data privacy laws and the rest of the country, and I have a I have a data privacy lawyer. I was like that is not–you don’t you don’t want that heat…
Dede Tetsubayashi
You don’t want to play with that. No!
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
No! So there are regulations around how you know, you have to have a data privacy policy. You have to have that be accessible to people, anyone that’s giving you information, we use GDPR compliant tools, we have data retention policies, how long we keep data before we delete it. And I don’t know that enough DEI practitioners like are paying attention to data privacy in the work that they’re doing. But it’s really, really important to be able to protect people’s identities and be able to protect their information when you’re getting this, this… this kind of data andon the inside from people.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes, that’s a good point to bring up. And you’re right, I actually don’t know how many practitioners follow these data privacy laws, or even considered GDPR, because they may not be restricted to working with people in, you know, outside of California, or outside of the US. Especially since a lot of companies have global presence, now, they’re international. And you may not be dealing with someone who’s in Michigan all the time, right? And it’s critical, since we’re supposed to be providing safe space.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yes.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Sorry–safe spaces, brave spaces, like, we need people to be able to trust that we’re not handing over their information…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Absolutely.
Dede Tetsubayashi
…to the people who are potentially going to leverage that against them.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I have found that clients that are really ready for this work, they don’t want the data because they understand that.
Dede Tetsubayashi
They understand.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
They’re like, No, we don’t want the raw data. I haven’t had a client yet say that they wanted the raw data after we had a conversation about it. I’ve had clients say, oh, yeah, sure. Like, it’d be good. We can go back and run some, you know, analysis after the fact. And I’m like, well, here’s what you need to understand about that decision. And then they’re like, Oh, actually, no, keep the data. You know, so most people, most people get it.
Dede Tetsubayashi
You’re right, they do, thankfully, or It usually only takes one conversation…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
to figure out that…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yeah. It’s not possible.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yes.
Dede Tetsubayashi
For you, what does divesting from and decentering whiteness look like in practice or execution?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
This is a big one.
Dede Tetsubayashi
It’s a hard one.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah, um, you know, I, I was born in the States, but I didn’t really come to…I don’t remember any part of that earlier part of my life. I remember, my earliest memories are from after we moved to Nigeria, right. And so I think I said earlier, I grew up in a place where I didn’t have to question I didn’t, if you would have asked me. You know, if I was Black, I would have been like, what do you mean? Like, it wasn’t even a thing. Like, it was just me, I was a girl I was, you know, seven years old. I was, yeah, I liked this and I didn’t like that… Like, my race wasn’t anything that I was consciously aware of, it wasn’t a thing, everybody looked like me.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
So coming from that environment, to the United States, and all of a sudden being around not just white people, but primarily white people, but also people from other parts of the world that were here in the US was a big shock, right? Like, I have a lot of distinct memories of just that process of like, oh, this is where I am now, this is what they do here, these are the things that are valued…
Dede Tetsubayashi
This is what they do here.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And this is what they value, this is what they don’t value, like. So those were very jarring experiences in that like, you know, 10 to 13 year old timeframe of like adjusting to a new country. And then fast forward to… and basically what was happening is I was being indoctrinated into a different– I will say a different version, a more overt…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Into American culture.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Exactly–a more overt version of American culture, aka white supremacy culture. Now, fast forward a few years, I went to visit Nigeria when I was in college, and I remember having this almost like spiritual experience of kind of shedding white supremacy culture, like a day or two in Nigeria, and I was like, wow, you know, it was like I was coming back now to myself.
Dede Tetsubayashi
This is different here.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
We do like this. Oh, my goodness. Yes. You know, I mean, I journaled all the way back on the plane, because it was there was so many things that happened on that trip, because I had been gone since I was 10. And I didn’t go again till I was like 19 or 20. And so I remember reconnecting to my flight to the US at Heathrow in London. And I felt like I was just assaulted by white supremacy all over again, like, I got off that plane from my layover. And it was like, Oh, the billboards, they’re not… they don’t look like me anymore. They’re all white look at the magazines, look at the books, look at the people walking around… It was like, oh, and I felt like my armor was actually like, I could like feel my armor like rising back up like, okay, I have to like armor up to go back to life in America, right? To doing things in a way that was more foreign to me than I had even realized, because I’d been there for 10 years.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And so, I mean, that’s just like one story of like my own kind of awakening, you could say, you know, because I was a business major in undergrad, I was going to be… a marketer, in a bank, actually, I was interning at a bank, and it wasn’t until my senior year after that trip that I was like, I can’t do that. I can’t, this can’t be my life, I have to do something else. So I ended up in DC, doing an AmeriCorps program, because that was my…the only thing I could see myself doing is working in the nonprofit sector, and because they’re at least trying to make a difference, they’re at least trying to improve the world in some way. And these programs are helping those that are on the margins, sort of, you know, get further in and away from the margins. And so, you know, I have a lot of stories like that, and professionally in my work…so much of the thing that is happening when we’re working with clients is rooted in white supremacy culture, you know, and so much of the way that we even– that I even think about myself and my own work still, you know, I’m having to unravel, you know, you said divest from, from whiteness, like I’m constantly unraveling what I said earlier that I am continuously humbled, like, you know, what, I learned that– I learned that this is the way to be, and this is what looks good, but that’s not the case, we can still be effective by if we do it differently. And so I’m in this like, journey of, you know, endless creativity, creating and unwinding and creating new ways of thinking about things and doing things in trying to do it in a more liberated way. So it’s… it’s–it’s a lot, it’s a lot to be doing, the work is leading other people do the work…
Dede Tetsubayashi
And leading… And I think it’s something that we don’t, we don’t talk about as much, we don’t bring up our own journeys of separating or decentering what whiteness and white supremacy or white supremacist culture looks like for ourselves in order to be able to lead others down a similar path and do it in a manner where we’re not hurting–we’re not repeating the same harms, either against ourselves or against the people who have put their trust in us, right?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Absolutely.
Dede Tetsubayashi
I think it’s a conversation as a larger conversation we need to have and I’d love to have it with other equity practitioners, because so many of us are not white.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
No.
Dede Tetsubayashi
We’re not white.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And that’s why the work is so draining. I was in a workshop. Now, I’m…I’ve just begun to post but I talk about with my, with my colleagues a lot. You know, the tension between the DEI work that we’re doing in companies and corporate and capitalism, and how those two things are opposed to each other. If your DEI work is really rooted in anti oppression, that’s not what– capitalism is very much rooted in oppression.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Absoutely.
So if you’re trying to do anti-oppressive DEI work, in a capitalistic society in a company that is squarely rooted, like we have to make money, it’s the bottom line, we’re trying to go public… How are you not talking about that tension, now that’s uncomfortable having that cnversation with the executive team of a workplace. And anytime that it comes up, I always, I always shine a light on it, even if we’re not… It’s come up when we’re in conversation about something totally different, it’s been actually centered in like workshop scenarios with clients, but any chance I get I just try to highlight it for them like listen, you have to understand that these two things are opposed. And there will be moments where you have to make a decision that is at the intersection of this tension, right. And so make sure you really mean it, when you tell your people what you’re what you’re committing to. Becase, sooner or later, if you are in a company scenario, and if you’re operating in this capitalistic society, even in the nonprofit space, you will have to make a call that will question how committed you are to this. And there are no, there are no easy answers, but just, you know, be ready to figure that out to process that together with each other and figure out how…where you’re going to land. I’m hoping that you land on the anti-oppression side always, of that decision.
Always.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Always. That’s where you should go. Just FYI, always choose anti oppression.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Um, but yeah, there is a right answer for this one always choose anti oppression. Yes. It is difficult.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
It’s just like, that is the tension that we have to talk about more. Yeah, I don’t know what got us on that topic.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Um, I think going back going back to like working in environments where people are coming to us either with an idea of what it is that they’re trying to do, but I’m prepared to actually parse out what it is that they’re trying to achieve and how they’re trying to achieve it. In addition to those who are already a little further along on their journeys, and they’ve done surveys, they’ve gathered information, they’ve listened to all different levels of the organization, and they know what it is that they’re trying to achieve. And, like having a plan is different from having everything buttoned up and wanting to go in this particular direction, because it’s something that you need to do as an organization; it’s a checklist, it’s a box you need to check. But it’s something that I think about because working with product teams, working with tech companies, the bottom line is always first and foremost…in leadership’s mind, right? And it’s such a hard process to get them to connect the safety and inclusion practices of everyone who’s in their ecosystem, individual contributors all the way to the board, to the work that they do, to their hiring practices, to the way they build relationships with their customers. All of that comes full circle back to the organization, and yeah,…when you’re working with a particular product, all they want to think about is what can make that product good. How do we get this out?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah.
Dede Tetsubayashi
And it’s like you can’t separate it from everything else that it’s building. When you cook something you can’t, you can’t have risotto, without the, rice without the mushrooms, without whatever else that you need to put in there, right? You can’t make egusi without the egusi seed. And you can’t have the stew without all the ingredients…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
You need the melon seed…
Dede Tetsubayashi
Whether it’s animal protein, vegetable protein doesn’t matter, you need all of those ingredients together to come up with a final result. And when you’re trying to do the work for people who are not just white, upper middle class– white men, that means you have to decenter whiteness, and you have to do that work for not only the company, but you have to decenter, what you, yourself as a practitioner–the equity practitioner have picked up, because we’re all cultured beings.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we’re all– none of us are exempt from the work of divesting from whiteness and white supremacy. We all have work to do ongoing, neverending work to do to really work it out of the way that we think, we show up, the way we do whatever it is that we’re doing.
Dede Tetsubayashi
So I’d like to actually end it on a well, I think we’ve been relatively positive, but on a more upbeat note, what what continues to give you hope in in this work? And what would you like to end this session on?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Wow, um, what continues to give me hope? Um, this is gonna sound really cheesy, but young people give me hope.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes!
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
They do, I’m an old person now, I can talk about the young ones like the young people. So the young ones coming up, they give me–they give me hope, I am…you know, just looking at my I have a 14 year old and her friendship groups, and the kinds of things that are like automatic no–that’s not okay, is like, wow, you like– I had, this wasn’t even in my realm of anything I would know about it 14, but not only do you know about it, it’s very, very clear to you and your friends that that is a wrong way to look at people or think about people or operate. So they’re– they’re just starting off…They’re starting off at a much better starting point, I think than us older ones. So they give me hope because they’re going to be in the workplaces, you know, right? At the same time, you know, I know that, you know, that, you know, power is… you know, there’s so many people, not just in the in the States, but in the world that just get power bestowed on them; it’s like their legacy, right? It’s like it’s just being passed down from generation to generation to generation… So I know that they will still have these challenges, because again, the journey is not going to end in our lifetime, in the next 200 years, like it will continue to get better, but it’s gonna take a while before that, you know, utopia world that we hope will happen happens. So, I know they’re gonna have their challenges and their battles to fight, and maybe they have to refight some battles that we thought had been fought and won, but but are being challenged again, right? But I really do have hope that this new generation, they’re not with the nonsense like, we have been–I feel like my generation was really taught…And I was explicitly taught in like, you know, workplace readiness programs and, you know, interview prep programs.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Oh, yes!
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Go in there and assimilate […]training curriculum. Right. So I’m really excited for this new generation that’s like, no, what does my hair being green, purple and pink today have to do with the work I’m producing? Absolutely nothing?
Dede Tetsubayashi
Right.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
What do these tattoos have to do with anything? Right? Why are there only white men leading this company? Where’s everybody else; this does not align with my values, I’m out. Like they’re just not with it. So I’m… I have, I draw a lot of hope from from the youngins.
Dede Tetsubayashi
I love it. I love it. And they continue to teach me everyday to so many even, even young one, like super baby babies. Their learning– their parents are teaching them. Like, for example, if you don’t want anyone in your space, you tell them no. Like nobody has a…
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Like the conversation about consent–I’m like, yeah, I love it. It’s amazing. Consent? We didn’t know about consent, we just got mad. Yeah. No. W were just like embarrassed or internalized stuff that we never should have, and they’re justoperating with a different framework. So it’s, it’s amazing.
Dede Tetsubayashi
It’s amazing. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. On that note, we are bringing this session to a close. It’s been lovely speaking with you, Olanike.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Yes. I was gonna say can I plug my course?
Dede Tetsubayashi
Yes, please do!
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
I have–so… I’m sure you will drop links and all that stuff so people know where to find things when you when you publish, but I have some exciting new things dropping for Mosaic. We have all our regular services of consulting and the advising, speaking, and workshops, but we are taking our full workplace equity audit–which is an amazing proprietary tool because we couldn’t find anything good on the market that I could use as a consultant–so, I built one and it’s amazing! It gives you more data and information, and so we’re packaging that to be able to have other consultants use it, to pair up whatever work that they’re doing with clients, and potentially to run the survey just by itself for companies that just want to get the data, and they’re not really quite ready for the consulting service yet. But it gives them enough data to just start to have some internal conversation about where to go. When I say data, kind of thinking back to our conversation, not the raw data, but the reporting–reporting that we do, to present that. So I’m really excited to be launching that DEI survey in the next few weeks. And then I have an online course that I’m super excited about, that is also launching in… I think the first public offering will be in March–next month.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Wow!
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
And so I’m really excited, I’ll share all the links, you know, so that we can put it on there. But yeah…
Dede Tetsubayashi
What is the course about?
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
The course is about disrupting inequity in the workplace. It’s on. It’s being hosted on a platform called Interplicity, and I have a special unique code that I can share with my friends to log on and register and check it out if they would like to…but, it’s all about just finding out where those pitfalls are in the workplace, you know, where are those hidden inequities? Where are those opportunities where you can disrupt inequity in the workplace, where you can make sure that you are making a real difference, and impacting your employee engagement across the board, right? Not just with the dominant folks that are in your workplace already…want to make sure that you’re really checking out all those processes that are running on autopilot and interrogating them for equity. Essentially, I’m going to walk you through the personnel lifecycle, and talk through all the decision points along the way that you can do something about inequity in the workplace. So I’m really excited to launch that and hope that it helps people find their footing a little bit more when they’re starting out with this work.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Wonderful, thank you so much for sharing that we will drop those links into the details so that you can find that information. And looking forward to seeing both of those launches very soon.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Thank you so much.
Dede Tetsubayashi
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure. I can’t wait to talk with you again. Of course, you know, online or offline. And, I’m wishing you the best.
Olanike Ayomide-Mensah
Thank you so much. You too; I do feel like we’re we’re probably due for another catch up after I get back.